Robert Coleman Interview: Disciple-making Legend (Episode 154)

In this unique episode, Jay and Andy Noel sit down with Dr. Robert Coleman—author of The Master Plan of Evangelism—at his home in Wilmore, Kentucky. Their visit took place during the 2023 Asbury Revival; they missed the outpouring by just one day, but gained something just as meaningful: an intimate conversation with one of the most influential voices in disciple‑making.

Dr. Coleman reflects on the heart behind The Master Plan of Evangelism, a book that may be even more about disciple‑making than evangelism itself. His insights are warm, wise, and deeply rooted in decades of walking with Jesus and training others to do the same.

Listen in as this renowned leader shares what truly matters in making disciples who make disciples.

Thanks for listening to the Great Groups Podcast. Please visit GreatGroups.org for a list of all our episodes.

We'd love to hear from you! Click here for our contact form. 

Jay Gordon is the Small Groups Minister at The Church at Brook Hills in Birmingham, Alabama, USA. Chris Amaro is an IT professional and serves as a Small Group Leader and Elder at Brook Hills.

Lifetime Show Notes

Brook Hills Pages:

• The Church at Brook Hills, Birmingham, Alabama, USA
• Small Group Leader Resources Page
• Small Group Discipleship Resources
• Small Groups @ Brook Hills

Transcript

Welcome And Why This Interview

Jay Gordon 0:10

Welcome to the Greg Groups Podcast. We're here to encourage and equip small group leaders at Brooklyn's and beyond. I'm Joy Gordon, Small Groups Minister at the Church of Brooklyn's. And I'm here alone today with a once-in-a-lifetime interview with author Robert Coleman. Listen in and learn from this legendary disciple Michael, an author of the Master Plan of Evangelism. All right, one thing I thought I would do on this and future podcast is add a scripture or start with a scripture. And one that I thought was really fitting today was 1 Thessalonians 2.0. That scripture says we cared so much for you that we were pleased to share with you not only the gospel of God, but our lives as well. So I just really thought that scripture epitomized Robert Cohen and the life that he has lived and the disciple maker that he has been in his life. And so here's the backstory of how I got a got an interview with Robert Cohen. Many of you have read his book, The Master Plan of Evangelism. In fact, I have a copy with me here, and the copy I've got is kind of old, but it says on the front of it more than 3.5 million copies sold. And so a lot of people have have read his book. And the staff at Brook Hills, we highly recommend that for small group leaders or anybody else interested in disciple making. There are a ton of good principles there. So, all right, here's the backstory. Some friends of mine had a chance to do a visit with Robert Coleman, and FOMO was all over me. I was so jealous of that. And so at some point writing about that, found out where he lived, how to make arrangements to do a visit with him. And so I thought it would be cool to go ahead and record that and eventually put it on the podcast. But you know, life got busy and I tried to transfer that myself to a file that we could upload to the podcast. And it had some glitches in it, just some very irritating things that wouldn't wouldn't work. And so I got some professional help to edit the video, I mean edit the audio so that we could could do that. And so, anyway, it's still a little bit unique. And also, as Robert Coleman was 94 at the time, he's still he's still kicking and doing a great job and, you know, just continuing to encourage people with his life. But being a 94-year-old, his voice is kind of gruff, and also he kind of rambles a little bit during the conversation. I can't remember if this made the final cut or not, but he he self-confessed that he rambles a good bit. But knowing that we might use it on a podcast, he said, uh, well, you can just cut that out if you want. It was well over an hour. You'll hear on the recording that I tried to land a plane at one point and he kind of kept going. And I don't know where it happened, but the podcast at some point after that just kind of cut out. So I hope there was nothing great at the end that we really missed. But there's plenty of great content here. So here's another way it all happened. If you remember back in February 2023, when I did this recording, there was uh a big revival going on at Asbury University in Wilmore, Kentucky, and that's where Dr. Coleman lives. The outpouring went on for about 16 days before they moved it to another location and eventually ended. But during that small town, it drew 50 to 70,000 people to the town of Wilmore, Kentucky. And so actually, just a kind of perfect storm hit. There was a lady in our group that lost her father, and actually Al Moller was going to be at the funeral, and there was the revival going on, and I thought, man, that would be so cool to pop in for an hour and see what's going on there, but also the possibility of the interview with Dr. Coleman. So it, you know, the trip was was just something we needed to do. So the podcast, I mean, the recording went way over an hour, and I I really thought it would be cool to put the whole thing out there, but you know, the length I thought, you know, sometimes it it drug on a little bit. But if you would be interested in hearing the whole hour plus uh recording, I would be glad to send that to you. At times we rambled, we had fun and laughed about his dog named Hallelujah. And so it it was good. But the book, The Master Plan of Evangelism, I read that in seminary when I was at Southwestern Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas in the 80s. Many seminarians have have read that, but I just say this it was a real honor to meet and and talk with Dr. Coleman. And you know, I could introduce him a lot more, but he actually talked about that on the on the recording on how he worked

Asbury Revival And Recording Backstory

Speaker 1 4:40

with Billy Graham and revivals and different things like that. So that's enough introduction. You'll hear more from him. But here's a recording of the interview that we did with Dr. Coleman in 2023. So listen and have fun with this.

Dr. Coleman 4:58

It's always uh good to meet people around revival. That's a good place to meet.

Jay Gordon 5:03

It is.

Andy Noel 5:03

Sure is. So hey so are you sensing any difference between the 1970 revival and this revival?

Dr. Coleman 5:12

Well, they've interviewed me uh several times about the former revival. There's not many still left that were here in 1915.

Jay Gordon 5:21

Yeah.

Dr. Coleman 5:23

But it's been a different group each time. I I don't mind this interviewing. Sometimes they last longer. One came for 15 minutes, and it took about an hour and a half, another came for that, say for two hours. But I enjoy talking. The thing is, I get reminiscing, get off the subject. But the thing about it, if they can, you know, go back and edit it, they can eliminate. Right. But it's not not necessary.

Jay Gordon 5:49

Right, right. And I'm the small group's minister at my church.

Dr. Coleman 5:53

Well, that's a good place to be. Yes. Small group, that's kind of like the crowd that Jesus had. Yes. So I tell the students here get you a few people around you. And if you have a few that will learn, you don't have to worry about teaching. That's the pattern of Jesus. And then that that few break out from there, and they'll disciple others.

Jay Gordon 6:15

Right. Well, I'm curious, when did you first start studying discipleship?

Dr. Coleman 6:20

Well, I really stumbled into it when I began to teach. I hadn't had any training in evangelism, even. My training had been in other schools, not even seminary, they taught evangelism for me. But in studying for my class, I said, since I haven't read a textbook on this subject, we're going to just take the New Testament. And we'd read through the New Testament, then read it again, asking a question: what did Jesus do? And how does that relate to your life? And with that, we could pretty well cover the field. Yes. But I began to learn about discipleship as I tried to teach evangelism and discovered that you begin with Jesus and just go with him. And he gives us his pattern, his plan is it's end when he says, Go and make disciples of all nations. But really, the Great Commission is not anything new. The Bible begins in the first chapter of Genesis with the Great Commission when God tells everyone, fill the earth. And filling the earth is the way discipleship finally ends at the throne of God. Yes. The Great Commission fulfilled. And when you read the book of Revelation, you realize the Great Commission is already fulfilled in the time span of Jesus. Yeah.

Speaker 1 7:53

You know, I think there

How Coleman Learned Discipleship

Speaker 1 7:55

are there are the teachings of Jesus, and then there's the methodology he showed us. Yeah. And it seems like, you know, in North America today and maybe worldwide, we're really focused on the teaching of Jesus, but don't look at the methodology of how he spent time with his disciples. Why do you how why do you think we've overlooked that?

Speaker 4 8:17

Well, they go together because they flow together. But the lifestyle of Jesus is the explication explanation of his teaching. And the lifestyle is what we miss. And we make the Great Commission something that we just do as a mechanical practice, but you know, it boils down to a lifestyle. And it's it's hard because it's it's the way you live every day. And if you just look for great teaching, you may miss the simplicity of the method. But really, you can't have a method without some content, and the content is the teaching of Jesus. But he says, Look at me, I'm the way. Follow me. That's the way we understand the teaching.

Speaker 1 9:18

Well, I'm curious, when did you first, you know, after you learned about disciple making, when did you really get started in that?

Speaker 4 9:24

Well, when I began to teach my evangelism classes, I'd been a pastor for six years. And I was doing what pastors do. I had been to seminary and graduated and had my doctorate degree, but as we asked the question, what did Jesus do? And answered it, how does that relate to your life? I began to see the Great Commission is the essence of his pattern. Make disciples, always with the vision of reaching the world. There's no difference between home missions and foreign missions. It's all world evangelism. And the end is seen in the great fulfillment at the throne of God, where people are gathering from every tongue, tribe, and nation. And I find much joy in anticipating that name. And that's why I like to think more about heaven now.

Speaker 1 10:28

Yeah. How many years young are you?

Speaker 4 10:30

I'm 94 now. 94, okay. And I lived here for five years, a little more. She died about five years ago. And I continue to teach in Gordon Conwill, but I told them I would like to just go down and teach classes that I could teach overseas or someplace in the U.S. So it could be with my wife. And so we moved down here and so we could spend our last years together. You know, the the the great issues of life become very simple when you get through them, get to the bottom of them. And basically, disciple making is just the pattern of Jesus. And the best way to learn discipleship is to go up in a home where you see it exemplified. If you don't have that at home, you'll have to learn it the hard way, just out where you live every day, or as you have experienced. And you gotta be with people to learn it. Not everywhere, but I have seen enough churches where the whole church is built around the site. I talked to someone just a few days ago who told me he had visited the Covenant Church in Singapore. And their model is making disciples. I've been there two or three times, and now when my doctoral class goes overseas, they end up their training at the Singapore city, where you get every culture in the world. And they go to this covenant church, and the pastor takes time to give them attention. And it's just a wonderful church. It's not the biggest church in Singapore, but it's probably one of the most rapid growing churches in their discipling. In revival, you have really a good foundation for discipleship. But the trouble about revivals, it may end in a few days. They don't realize revival means coming alive, and that means coming alive to the lifestyle of God, of Jesus. And that's the hard part of it.

Speaker 3 12:40

What do you think was one of the main parts of Jesus' lifestyle that impacted his disciples? Was it his love? Was it his power?

Speaker 4 12:51

Was it his well is the is is the motivation, but you really can't love unless you're loving like Jesus. He's the example of love. And love can be just sentimentality, and that is not love in the Bible. Love is sacrificial love, and it's it's hard to love. And that's why suffering is a part of our life, because you really have to have suffering to appreciate the depths of the love of God and the cross. And again, so much of our concept of love is just sentimentality. Romanced, right? And that's it's part of love, but it's not the essence of love.

Speaker 1 13:43

I'd love to see the church in North America get back to a discipling model. What advice would you tell, what would you say to pastors to encourage them in that way?

Speaker 4 13:52

Well, the word with

Teaching Versus Lifestyle In Jesus’ Method

Speaker 4 13:55

W-I-T-H is the essence of it. Jesus was with his disciples. That's why he could tell them, follow me. The command was follow me. But you gotta have someone to follow. And that's that's the pattern. And the cost comes in arranging your schedule and your time to be with people, and that takes forethought on your part, as well as those that you're discipling. That's why in small groups you have a better platform than in a great crusade. Right. Now I believe in crusades. I I worked with Billy Graham for many years as uh as dean, he called it the dean of his international schools for evangelists. Most people don't realize. Billy had two great desires. One was to evangelize everybody in the world, and he's come as close to that as anybody I know. The second was to train pastors to be evangelists. Well, he's on the road all the time. How could he do that? Uh-huh. And so, in God's providence, he brought me in contact with Billy, and Billy wanted me to go and teach discipleship and evangelism. The two are always the other. Right. And he was able to do it. And I had the privilege of being involved in that for years.

Speaker 1 15:29

How did you meet Billy Graham? How did you get linked up with him?

Speaker 4 15:32

Well, that was early on after I visited one of his crusades, my brother, who at the time was working as sort of a roustabout under Charlie Riggs. And Charlie Riggs was in charge of the follow-up division of the Billy Graham Association. So after Crusades, it was over to Charlie to find out how to follow up these converts. He's the powerful discipler. And I got acquainted with him and really learned how he did it. And that was, I guess, the essence of learning. I got as close as him as I could for years, but and he would go with us in our schools and he would teach his specialty of follow-up. But I went to this crusade where I think it was at the time the crusade. Oklahoma City. Okay. And my brother, who was working with Billy, is kind of a roused about at the time. He said, You've never met Billy, have you? I said, No, I haven't personally. He said, Well, I'm in charge of the uh gate at the platform tonight, and I'll introduce Billy when he comes. He stays always in a place outside of the crusade. Usually it's a it'll be a hotel nearby, but sometimes it's just a trailer. And he can go over there and lay down and have some quiet and also rest. And in the crusade that night, my son Lyman, younger than me by five years, he was in charge of the gate that would lead up to the platform where Billy would sit and where he would have all the sponsoring pastors of the of the city, depending on the size of the city, but he'd have usually 15 or 20 pastors up there sitting. And I was waiting there at the gate when Billy came walking down the path, and Clemon sat down and says, Billy, I want you to meet my brother, uh, Robert Coleman. And Billy looked at me and says, Robert, what are you doing? He says, Well, I'm a professor of evangelism now at Asbury Seminary in Kentucky. He said, Well, I've never been there, but that's a good school. He said, I know about it. And this is very characteristic of Billy. One thing he likes to do is to help young preachers. That's a passion of him. And so he said, Robert. Well, he called me Bob. And he always called me Bob. Bob, come up here and sit on the platform with dinner. He didn't know me from Adam. So I walked up behind him, up those steps, three or four steps, and sat down behind him on the platform, just like all the other people on the platform. And that was my first introduction to Billy. And that's very characteristic of Billy. If he can find a practical way to help a young preacher, it feels it just makes him feel good. That's good. And I was just a young seminarian, been a pastor for six years, but I hadn't really had much training.

Speaker 1 18:52

Was Master Plan of Evangelism your first book? Was Master Plan your first book?

Speaker 4 18:57

It was uh first book. I wrote some Bible studies for four, three or four of those before, just for mainly evangelists to get people started. Billy had Bible studies. And I I a lot of Westlands didn't have Bible studies that were their theology. I happened to be a Westland in theology. So I wrote three or four. Those books really gave the Master Plan a run in stars because a couple hundred of two or three thousand of them were sold. Well, when they heard about this book, Master Plan, see, people have been followed up in Crusades. That was a natural boost. Good. And more of those Bible studies were sold than the master plan. Wow. Eventually, the master plan overtook them, and that's been the book that's been most widely read and translated. And that's one of the great joys.

Speaker 1 19:52

What's the difference in the Master Plan of Evangelism

Love, Suffering, And Being With People

Speaker 1 19:55

and your book, The Master Plan of Discipleship?

Speaker 4 19:57

Well, they're the same thing. The Master Plan of Discipleship a little later is built on the model in the book of Acts, but it's the same plan. Okay. Just a little later. But 133 languages are now translated to the master plan. And a lady that I hadn't really figured out all the different. I have letters requested permission that have come either from publishers or from a missionary. If you wrote the publisher, he'd asked for, you know, a royalty or something. They send it asked for it, send it to me as I give every missionary for me. And that was a blessing because missionaries don't have any money. And that's where the people are. That's right. And I've lived long enough to see the principles. You see, the master plan is written in terms of principles, not techniques, not programs, not tech, not even not even basic plans. The master plan is an attempt to see the lifestyle of Jesus in the way he lived to accomplish his purpose in what in saving the all the peoples of the earth. Which he gives us the essence of it before he goes back to heaven. And his last command is, do what I've been doing, make disciples. That's so easy to understand what his command is to the church. And to break it work, the simpler you can be, the better it is. The man who's one of the navigators, the head of the navigators at the University of Kentucky. And the navigators basically is just a master plan among the layman. One of their principles is don't let anybody know you're doing it. So they just mingle into the. The minister's conference used in the middle of winter, usually in the month of February, they had a pastor's conference at Asbury. There was a pastor that would come up from Mississippi, I knew him well. He wouldn't stay over with the ministers. He would usually go to a hotel or they would live in a nice dormitory at the seminary. They have places where you can stay. He wouldn't go with one of the students from his church and stay in that student's dormitory room during the conference. Wow. You know, he was practicing the master plan. He never read the book. But that was his lifestyle. That's the way he would come to minister's conference. No wonder his church was alive, and there was a stream of people that would come out of his church to Attenbury Seminary. Wow. That's cool. Who were following their pastor?

Speaker 1 22:51

Yeah. Let me ask you a question. Okay, I'm curious. If you were helping a church set up a plan to do discipleship, would you use some kind of curriculum or just use the Bible alone as your curriculum?

Speaker 4 23:05

Well, all you need is the Bible. And if you have some kind of a program, that would be fine. Just follow that. I wrote Bible studies for little groups. And anytime I was teaching, whether in a seminary or in the Billy Graham School, the focus of what I was teaching was the master plan. And it's easy to teach this eight principles or more, but you could teach it anyway wanted to. And that's what I taught on overseas for Billy. And that's one reason so many books are translated by missionaries. You know, we in fact Billy has written the introduction to the new edition of the book now. You know, I've been blessed so much with opportunities that I could never have planned in advance. I could never have anticipated. How God would have directed my ministry. I started out as a pastor, but I was preaching on the street, just doing evangelistic work before I became a pastor. I started out really as a street preacher.

Billy Graham And Follow Up That Lasts

Speaker 4 24:10

In a meeting that the Baptists were done in Temple, Texas, and they saw me standing around and asked me to come up and say something. So I gave a testimony which turned into a little mini sermon on the street. And I saw the blessing of that. Jesus preached on the street more than he did in pulpits. I try to tell my students that too. And when I was here at Asbury on Friday nights, usually Friday night, I'd go with some of my students, the Lex that we preached on the street. There's already a place on the main street lexin I haven't preached. And oh, I have stories. I wish I could write them down because I was so tired when I got home after teaching all day and then going with a carload of students to Lexington. I was just exhausted when I got back. I didn't write down. I have some memories. The problem is when you go to these formal schools, and by the time you get to the seminary, you think that's going to be all you need. You don't get discipled. Unless that is a definite objective and you put it as a priority, and you don't do it by teaching in class. When I started teaching, I realized I couldn't do it by myself. And so I'd make a little group of, you know, it's usually to choose between the five and six or seven, one morning a week. And we would get to there, it'd usually be on a Thursday. A time when classes are not meeting, we'll meet at six o'clock or six fifteen or an hour until usually one uh uh usually would meet it and start at six, go to seven fifteen, because classes would usually start at seven thirty or eight. They have to go home take breakfast.

Speaker 1 26:08

But so you would disciple six or seven. Six or seven.

Speaker 4 26:13

Okay.

Speaker 1 26:14

And some of my I don't think Andy's heard the story of the of your boys and and the names written in the Bible. Oh, yeah. How many, how many names are in that Bible?

Speaker 4 26:24

Well This is an old Bible, but I would write a new Bible. And it was falling apart, so I I put tape around it. Again, and now it's this Bible goes back about ten years. And the tape is gonna have to be redone. You see, there's there's the list of what of six years there. Wow.

Speaker 26:47

That's neat. Could I say that?

Speaker 4 26:48

Yeah, you can see that.

Speaker 26:49

I'd love to see it. That's neat.

Speaker 4 26:52

But if you go through there, you'll see sometimes in the margins of the Bible names. Those are mostly students. And it had several different Bibles. My last Bible was given me by a missionary. I was preaching it to at a Baptist church over in North Augusta, south from where my brother lives. This was on the South Carolina side, North Augusta. And as I often do when I'm invited to a church, I preach around the master plan. And a missionary came up and he said, Um, I want to come to your class. I want to be one of your students. I looked at him, he was 80 years old. I said, Well, you can just come anytime. Don't ask, don't pay any money because just be as my guest. Because if you do come in, you have to usually pay a fee to be a guest of the seminary. And he said, Oh no, I want to get credit for the class. And I just like a student. I said, Well, he says, You'll have to do that with them, and but if you come, you'll certainly be welcome. And I thought I forgot about it. Uh-huh. Well, he he came and signed up in the class, and I knew it when I saw him sitting in the classroom. It turned out he was 86 years old.

Speaker 3 28:19

Oh wow.

Speaker 4 28:20

He retired as a missionary under the Baptist Chelsea Baptist. Uh-huh. And he became the darling of the class. He'd always sit on the front seat, right in folk from the desk. And uh he gave me a Bible, dedicated to me and my wife. And it's around here someplace.

Speaker 1 28:40

Do you have a favorite Bible verse?

Speaker 4 28:43

Well, I have the Bible verse that I was going to write my next book on, but I've decided I'm not going to write the book. Like, I don't think I'll have time to write another book. And I'm not sharp enough to do it now. But I have the case. If any man among you seem to be wise, then first become a fool that he may be wise. Because the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. That's really my last one. It's going to be dedicated to the seminarians. See, I've been a teacher for 65 years. I think I'm by far the oldest teacher of evangelism anywhere in the country or twice as old because I've been in different, three different seminaries. I tried to make disciples. And we would meet early in the morning, one day a week. And I would require them when they

Simple Practices That Multiply Disciples

Speaker 4 29:45

entered the class, you have three days, you can drop out. If you stay after the third day, that means you'll be here the rest of the semester. And if you miss at least one day without a legitimate excuse, you have to be excused from the class. You have to be dismissed. I can only remember one time I had to dismiss a student. They come. See, that's the part of the discipline. Now I usually have six students. Anyway, each each one of them would disciple one, and I would tie take each one of those disciplers of a group of three, I would take one of those group leaders as my responsibilities. I try to select students that look like they wanted to fit into this. If they were just interested in getting other credit, that wasn't.

Speaker 1 30:37

What did you look for? What did you look for in the students?

Speaker 4 30:41

It had to be sharp. And I usually take him to dinner or over to the house for supper or something like that. My wife, she always worked with me, and she was the best hospitality person that I ever knew. That's why I said she was a better disciple. And she loved entertainment. Hardly a week would pass without us having at least one or two guests at our table. And people loved her because she was just natural. And you know, when she was with me and I'd go out, I never worried about getting it into problem because any problem that would come up with me, she could get me out of it. She was so sweet. Everybody loved her. But you know, God was so good to give me a woman like that to live with. We raised three kids. I was a pastor for six years, and the first two churches were in Indiana, churches on a circuit. Okay. I've always had churches that were circuits. And I like that planet's more like the planet Z move around from place to place.

Speaker 1 31:52

We've kept you an hour. Well, so I appreciate your time, and I want to appreciate, I do want to let you know I appreciate it. Enjoy visiting with you. Thank you for one of the time for us.

Speaker 4 32:04

And that's what I believe. Wesley believed the Bible was inerrant. I just inspired. Inherent. It doesn't make mistakes. That's right. God can make mistakes. And one thing I liked about Billy Graham, he was just like me. Even though his father was converted in a Methodist church, really didn't care whether I was a Methodist or a Baptist. And he didn't care about any denomination. He was ecumenical in the true sense of the word. That's one reason he didn't go anywhere in the world. So thank God that I had that privilege, not just to work along Billy Graham, but to work with pastors all over the world. Yeah. All over the world.

Closing Challenge And Where To Listen

Speaker 1 32:52

Well, I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. That's about it for the episode. Thanks so much for listening. And here's the challenge for today. What one thing did you learn that you can put into practice in your group? Please subscribe on your favorite podcast app and your record future podcasts, but also visit Greggroup.org and listen to another 450 episodes. Thanks for listening.